After I had experienced some health problems, my wife and I began looking for a home based business. One of our first considerations was a web-site. As I recall we did reply to ads concerning home based businesses that appealed to us as something that would be of interest. Jay Abraham was one of those ads. Early in March we received a telephone call from representatives of PMG. They were selling the Vermotion web-site building program. The pitch was extremely high pressure, but we were told by Ryan Hill that if we made a purchase and did not recover our original investment in six months we would be given additional training until we made our money back. We were also told that if we made the purchase at that time, it would be discounted. My wife and I were both skeptical but considering the guarantees we decided that we couldn't loose. We received a receipt from PMG, 5072 North 300 West, Provo, Utah 84604 and dated March 4th of 2003 giving the name of the Business Consultant as Jeromy Jamison and the Director as Ryan Hill. The receipt divided the charges into several items as follows: INT-102 MMP Wholesale Membership. Quantity 1 INT-800 Internet Business Coaching. Quantity 1 INT-610 Internet Business Management System and Web Site. Quantity 1 INT-819 Internet Business Online Manuel. Quantity 1 INT-603 ECHO Merchant Account Quantity 1 MUL-000 Success Team Membership Quantity 1 MUL-001 Financial Toolkit 1.0 Quantity 1 INT-899 Internet Business Warranty of Service. Quantity 1 INT-898 Internet Business Coaching Checklist... Quantity 1 INT-570 Fortius Guaranteed Hits ($300 per 1,000. Quantity 1 With the promised discount the total came to $4,635.00 which was paid to EPMG/Internet Team by credit card on 3/5. There was also a monthly fee of $39.95. From the beginning it seemed like there was more marketing then mentoring. With the exception of how to use the Vermotion site, there was no unique or special information involved. Almost everything concerning making our site more marketable came in the form of an offer by another company and involved more money. As an example on October 14 I received an e-mail from my mentor Matt Siltala which read: Dave, at this point a good start for driving targeted traffic to your site is to submit specific pages on your site to search engenes (ie product pages) We just found out about a really good targeted traffic plan from ah ha... This is really something to consider. With this link XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX click on the bottom banner on the page (the one that starts off " I want my site to appear on" start with that and lets see where we go from there! I do not remember the exact circumstances, but I must have clicked on the link because the following day, October 15 I received an e-mail that read in part: % Over the past seven years I have worked with men and women from all over the world and helped them to start racing. Racing at any level take commitment, training and sorry to say but it's true... Cash. What would you like to accomplish regarding racing? I will review your reply and let you know if we should continue further on developing a plan of action that is right for your needs. Sincerely, Lee How To Start Racing email: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX % On October 19 I sent Lee a reply in which I said, I'm not looking to make a fortune, but I'm not even making up what I'm spending and everyone wants money. If I'm going to spend any more money there will have to be some guarantees. I'm in a fixed income situation right now and can't do much more. I never heard from him again. The very thing I was told by Ryan Hill and Jeromy Jamison would not happen was beginning to happening. There were additional costs which I would be unable to afford. An even more recent example of this same thing happened on Friday January 7, when I received a telephone call from a man calling himself Gabriel Gervelis. He said that his company, Internet Advancement, was working with Vermotion web-sites that rated in Google but were not making sales. I decided to do a little research and found an article that had been published in the SeattleTimes on Thursday, August 12, reporting that Internet Advancement out of Redmond, Washington had been forced by the Washington States Attorney General's Office to refund customers $24,432.00 and pay a civil penalty of $25,000.00. Devon Willis of Prosper Learning denied knowing anything about Gabriel Grevelis. The fact remains that even if Gabriel just stumbled onto my site he would not have been able to determine my poor sales situation except from those to whom I had complained. That would be people from Prosper. That's not mentoring, that's serving as a directory to other businesses that want even more money with promises to provide just what I was lead to believe I had paid PMG for in the first place, namely the training and a site that would sell on the internet. Perhaps the most irritating problem was Vermotions site statistics system. Counts on a site are critical and determine how its owner makes changes to improve sales. Our site had problems with counts from the beginning. Following are examples of those issues. % On October 17 I issued the following complaint to PMG Techsupport: Checking site statistics for Otter Creek Outback at 3:19 PM CST for 10/16/03 shows total page views at 227; unique visitors 29; first time visitors 25; returning visitors 4. It gave an average visit length of 409.66 minutes. The day ended with total pages viewed at 248; unique visitors 48; and returning visitors 7, and an average visit length at 250.00 minutes. Either of those figures for average visit length seems unlikely to me. How accurate is the system that keeps those records and are the addresses of the visitors recorded someplace? If that system is not reliable how can it be used to help determine what steps to take to improve the site? D.L. XXXXXXXXXX From: Kevin Doyle, tech support To: D.L. XXXXXXXXXX Reply-To: Date: Oct 17 - 3:34pm D.L.: I agree. Those stats don't seems to be very reliable. Let me see what's up. Kevin technical support www.pmgtech.com 800.748.5199 option 5,2 FAQ | Chat | News & Updates | Checklist % Counts were a problem to the very end. On any given day the click throughs reported by my affiliate sites were vastly different than Vermotions. Further random examples: Vermotion reported hits Affiliates reported click-throughs August 13- 147 0 November 16 211 2 Month of January 1,557 38 I could go on and on and on, but I think my point is made. I don't know how many times I approached PMG Technicians about the problem. I knew one thing for certain I was making NO sales. % Another problem with the Vermotion system was the placing of html on my home page for affiliate advertisements. Their system would double or even triple the code putting ads both at the desired location and at the bottom of the page. At one point I was told by a technician that the Vermotion system does that. Maybe so but not for $39.95/month. Considering these issues along with the promise that we had received from Ryan Hill at the time of our purchase, I decided it was time to make the call. On February 17 I called Ryan Hill at Prosper Learning and was immediately transferred to Devon Willis. We discussed most of the above mentioned issues, but the discussion quickly progressed to our original receipt, definitions of the categories and a price breakdown. When I asked for a price breakdown, Devon declined by saying that will never happen. He went on to say that because it was a package deal he would not do a price breakdown. Further discussion did bring us to a consensus that there were at least 2 categories which we had never used and had no need for. We were reimbursed for categories INT-603 ECHO Management Account to which he assigned a price of $500.00 and MUL-001 Financial Toolkit 1.0 to which he assigned a value of $100.00. I received a check from Prosper Learning for $700.00. I was asked to acknowledge our decision in an e-mail which I did as follows: % Devin According to our telephone discussion this morning, I am taking your word for the value placed on the 2 categories of my billing (Mar 4) on which we both agreed that I didn't need or use. (int-603 echo merchant account @ $500.00 and mul-001 financial tool kit 1.0 @$100.00. We also discussed additional training at no cost and the waiver of monthly site fees. My intention is not to be unfai with you and I hope you not being unfair with me. I need a site that sells and your people contacted me with that promise. D.L. % After reviewing all these issues again I could see that there were other categories that needed explanation. I worked with affiliates so we didn't need the INT-603 ECHO Merchant Account and I had been reimbursed for that, but how about INT-102 MMP Wholesale Membership? I had my own affiliates, there was no need for their Wholesale Membership. And how about INT-889 Internet Warranty of Service? I was already paying $39.95/month for their technical support services. What is INT-898 Internet Coaching Checklist? It is a single 8 X11 page enumerating the coaching sessions with a box next to each that could be checked as progress was made. I couldn't see that adding much to the total.in our telephone conversation of February 17 Devon had said that he would not do a price breakdown of my receipt because it was a package deal. After each category listed on my original receipt there was a designation of Quantity 1 indicating that these were component parts and could be taken or left. All those component parts came to a total and therefore each has a value. Breakdowns are done everyday. Look at the sticker price on an automobile. Even if the auto is sold at a reduced price the original sticker price is not kept a secret. It was plain that I needed more answers. Over a month had passed and I had not received any further clarification concerning the additional training promised by Ryan Hill at the time of the original sale. On March 21 I sent the following e-mail to Devon Willis: % Devin, In February I talked to you about my Web site Otter Creek Outback. At that time we discussed the invoice that I had recieved from PMG for my site. The invoice was separated into several different items with a quantity of "1" after each item. We agreed that I had no used and did not need item INT-603 ECHO Merchant Account and item MUL-001 Financial Toolkit 1.0 for which I was reimbursed. There are several other items that I am unclear about. I would like a definition of what each of the following items and how much was charged for each.inT-102 MMP Wholesaler Membership INT-610 Internet Business Management System and Web Site - I need to know whether this site can be moved to another host? INT-819 Internet Business Online Manual INT-899 Internet Business Waranty of Service - I would like a copy of that warranty.inT-898 Internet Business Coaching Checklist INT-570 Fortius Guaranteed Hits ($300 per 1,000) I would like to know when my site recieved those hits? We also discussed additional training and a wwaiver of hosting fees but I haven't heard any more concerning those issues. Thank you, David L. XXXXXXXXXX % When I did not get a reply I sent the same message on March 31. I still got no reply to my e-mail message, so I cancelled my credit card and back charged for the months of February and March. On April 4 I called Prosper Learning and left a message on the voice-mail of Devon Willis calling his attention to his unanswered e-mail and I left my telephone number to return the call. No call was returned. When I received the notice of a billing problem from PMG 0n April 5, I returned it with the following notice attached: Before anything is authorized I need a reply from Devin Willis concerning my site. On April 8, I called Prosper Learning and talked to Justin who patched me into the voice-mail of Devon Willis. Once again I left a message calling his attention to the unanswered e-mail and phone messages. Once again I left my telephone number to return the call and once again it was ignored. I received 2 telephone calls from Holly at the Prosper coaching office 1-800-743-9833. One of the calls was made on April 14 the other on April 19. A message was left both times concerning the scheduling of three additional training sessions focusing on marketing my site. I returned the calls on April 21. I declined to schedule at that time because of a conflict with plans that I had already made and because I was awaiting a response to my e-mails and phone messages that I had left for Devon Willis. Holly told me that she would call it to Devon's attention. Now the offer had changed from training until I made my investment back to 3 additional sessions. My intentions were to withhold monthly fees until I received answers to the questions that I had posed to Devon. I consider any questions concerning my billings or the operation of my site as part of the services for which I have paid. At this point I had attempted to contact Devon Willis on 6 separate occasions. All attempts were ignored. Finally on April 27 there began a volley between Allison Murray the Customer Financial Administrator of Prosper Learning and myself that progressed as follows: % — Original Message — From: Allison Murray [mailto: [email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, April 27 9:14 PM To: Subject: Cancellation Please see the attached release form that explains what will take place with your account. Sign and return this as soon as possible. Once I receive your signed form, I will notify you by email, usually within 24 hours. You can fax it to: 1-801-705-5393 If you will be returning your materials, please wait until our shipping department contacts you to return any product. Let me know if you have any questions regarding this. Allison Murray Customer Financial Administrator Prosper, Inc. 1.800.748.5199 ext: 3437 Phone 801.374.2358 Fax [email protected]. % Attachment: Prosper, Inc. Suite 110 5072 North 300 West Provo, UT 84604 April 27 Dear David: We are preparing to cancel your of your March 4 purchase, which was debited from your Master card account #5XXX-XXXX-XXXX-2586.in accordance with our agreement, we have retained the purchase price as the cancellation fee.By signing this agreement you verify that you have removed any disputes that you may have filed with your credit card company for this/these charge (s), and that you will not make any attempts to dispute this/these charge (s) in the future. You also verify that all outstanding issues between you and Prosper have been resolved. Your compliance with this agreement allows us to process your refund with the assurance that we will not have undue losses. We also agree to refund said amount and will not place any charges on the credit card in the future. Please complete the form below and return it to us by sending this page to the fax number indicated below. If this is not possible send the form to the address at the top of this page. Contact us if you have any questions before returning this form. Sincerely, Allison Murray Customer Relations Administrator Phone: 800-748-5199 ext. 3437 Fax to: 801-705-5393 Date: Print Name: I, David XXXXXXXXXX, sign the following agreement stating that if I have filed any disputes with my credit card (s) for the charge (s) indicated above, that I have withdrawn them, and I will not file any more disputes related to this/these charge (s) in the future. Signature: Date: % My Response: From: D.L. XXXXXXXXXXX Sent: Wed 4/27 8:39 PM To: Allison Murray Subject: RE: Cancellation Allison, I'm not certain what you mean in paragraph one of your attachment that reads "your of your March 4 purchase" and the statement "In accordance with our agreement, we have retained the purchase price as the cancellation fee." Could I get some clarification on this please? D.L. XXXXXXXXXXX % Prosper's Response: — Original Message — From: Allison Murray [mailto: [email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, April 27 10:40 PM To: D.L. XXXXXXXXXXX Subject: RE: Cancellation I am sorry, I wrote the same words twice. Mr. Willis informed me that you wanted to cancel out of the program. There is a no refund policy. This just means that we are canceling your program and the payments that are being made monthly. Allison Murray Customer Financial Administrator Prosper, Inc. 1.800.748.5199 ext: 3437 Phone 801.374.2358 Fax [email protected]. % I was confused at this point because I had made no cancellation. Devon Willis had made no reply to my many attempts to contact him with my concerns. That was one of the reasons for declining further training sessions in my phone conversation with Holly on April 21. The second sentence is sneaking a little closer to the truth when Allison said WE are canceling your program. % My Response: From: D.L. XXXXXXXXXX [ Sent: Thursday, April 28 3:11 AM To: Allison Murray Subject: RE: Cancellation Allison, You also said in the attachment "We also agree to refund said amount and will not place any charges on the credit card in the future." In what amount is the "said amount" that you mentioned? D.L. XXXXXXXXXX % At this point I was thinking that Devon had finally read my e-mail and determined that I had another refund coming. What else could it possibly be referring to.??? % Prosper's Response: — Original Message — From: Allison Murray [mailto: [email protected]] Sent: Thursday, April 28 12:11 PM To: D.L. XXXXXXXXXX Subject: RE: Cancellation This is just a general form we send out when we are refunding a client for a certain amount. However, since we are not refunding any of your payment, that part does not apply. Allison Murray Client Financial Administrator Prosper, Inc. 1.800.748.5199 ext: 3437 Phone 1.801.705.5393 Fax [email protected] This is very interesting. If this is a general form that they mail out when they are refunding a certain amount then why send it to me if I do not have a refund coming? Does everyone that has a refund coming also have credit card payment disputes? This correspondence was tailor made for me. Either that or they are admitting that they have a huge amount of credit card disputes which would be a reflection on their business practices. It seems obvious that they wanted things as confusing as possible so I would sign the release which I WILL NOT! % My Response: From: D.L. XXXXXXXXXX Sent: Thursday, April 28 4:32 PM To: Allison Murray Subject: RE: Cancellation Allison, I would like a copy of the agreement that allows you to keep the purchase price as the cancellation fee. D.L. XXXXXXXXXX % Prosper's Response: David - When you first enrolled in the program, there was a verbal recording of the registration.in the registration, it states that if you were to cancel, then the cancellation fee would be for the services rendered. All services have been rendered, therefore there is no need for a refund. Allison Murray Client Financial Administrator Prosper, Inc. 1.800.748.5199 ext: 3437 Phone 1.801.705.5393 Fax [email protected]. % My Response: Allison, Whether all services have been rendered or not remains an issue. The fact that no services were rendered as far as some of the categories listed on my original invoice resulted in a refund, which I received. Questions concerning other categories, prices, and promises made by representatives from your business establishment were never answered satisfactorily. Despite the fact that I made several attempts to contact Devon Willis with those concerns, I received no reply. Do you consider answering questions concerning an account of one of your paying customers rendering service? I do, and Devon Willis failed to do that. As far as I am concerned you have failed to render the service for which I paid. As a consequence I did the very thing that you would have done if you did not get answers to questions concerning a service. Since your establishment has failed to address my concerns, I am requesting a full refund of my money. It was you who notified me of the cancellation of services not the other way around. D.L. XXXXXXXXXX % To clarify the point As a consequence I did the very thing that you would have done if you did not get answers to questions concerning a service I was referring to stopping further credit card payments to Prosper and back charging for the payments we had made for February and March. I had back charged because some of the issues that I had discussed with Devon on February 17 were not being implemented and further concerns that I had presented to Devon by e-mail and by telephone messages were being ignored. According to the better Business Bureau of Utah this company goes by the name of American Dream Challenge, Inc. Which is also doing business as; Robert Allen Company, Prosper Learning and Multiple Streams of Income. There comes a point when even the worst of these internet pirates have to admit that they are nothing but low-life thieves. I think that point is reached when the scoundrels are no longer able to face their accusers in an e-mail, by telephone or in any other way. It is apparent that Devon Willis is incensed to the utterance of a discouraging word but has absolutely no compunction about bold faced lying and stealing. Maybe Devon needs some mentoring in Business Ethics. There are many wardens around that would handle that task quite commendably. David Wheeler, Wisconsin
U.S.A.
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